What are the actual class sizes at Honeywell and Belleville primary schools? Post Reply

[TD4321]

Hello

I am weighing up moving into the catchment area of honeywell and belleville primary schools OR staying put in tooting and using the money on private primary school instead. I can see they both Honeywell and Belleville get excellent KS2 results, but my main concern is the class size.

Do Honeywell and Belleville have a class size of 30 children to 1 teacher? I have a primary school teacher friend who teaches a class of 30 students and finds it difficult to gain class control, which she feels lets down the children.

Is it worth staying in tooting and paying for private school to give her smaller class sizes? OR is it better to pay for a house in a catchment area of a good state primary school. I cannot afford both!

Thanks in advance!

[Twinklestar]

If you are happy with your house, stay where you are and go private.

Both Honeywell and Belleville have 30 kids to 1 teacher, no teaching assistant, unless dedicated to SEN kids and even these often don't get as much TA time as prescribed in their EHCPs because TAs get "assigned to other projects", which means that sometimes these kids are not supported adequately ie. regularly more strain on the teacher. Depending on the mix of kids in the class, some days it can be quite a zoo so your friend is correct. HW and Belleville kids are usually very good overall but sometimes it takes a couple of disruptive kids to disrupt the entire class. It's incredibly hard for the teacher to manage.

We spent a fortune to be in the catchment just to take our child out after year 2 and move to private for juniors which was a great move. We now wish we got a cheaper house and smaller mortgage and went private from the beginning. My observation is also that private schools get more experienced and older teachers. Our child was at HW and many teachers were either brand new, freshly qualified, or very inexperienced. Things like managing a big class or dealing with different abilities and personalities in one class are definitely better managed by older more experienced teachers. I guess they prefer to teach in privates for better pay (although not always the case), smaller classes, longer holidays etc... so privates get their pick of the best teachers

[Indieschoolparent]

My children have been at a well-known private prep for the last five years or so. There's been a noticeable influx of young and fresh out-of-uni teachers joining. So, not just a perceived state school phenomenon.

In fact, I would say that at my children's school, the number of young teachers in their 20s and 30s outweighs the older ones (as you describe them). I'm not sure whether it's accurate to say that private school teachers are more experienced or better. I've witnessed some pretty mediocre and lazy teaching over the years. 

One thing I know about Belleville is that the children don't swap classmates. So, your child is stuck with the same children / same class for their entire time there. At my children's school it's every two years that they change classmates; seems much healthier to me. 

Good luck with your decision. 

[EmG08]

My daughter is at Honeywell - she is happy enough and it's an ok school but I wouldn't move the house or spend money to be next to it. Older parents say it's not what it used to be. In my experience, it's just ok. Don't get fooled by their KS2 results. It's only because everyone tutors extensively. Pretty much everyone. Without this, the results would not be what they are. So be careful not to attribute it to the school. The gap between the material tutors cover and what the school covers is big. Classes are 30 for 1 teacher. Disruptive kids are not really managed so you have to be lucky to get a good class. Some teachers are good, some very weak. I wouldn't move for it. Plus you won't get the sports, art, music and everything else private will offer. I can't comment on Belleville

[EmG08]

My daughter is at Honeywell - she is happy enough and it's an ok school but I wouldn't move the house or spend money to be next to it. Older parents say it's not what it used to be. In my experience, it's just ok. Don't get fooled by their KS2 results. It's only because everyone tutors extensively. Pretty much everyone. Without this, the results would not be what they are. So be careful not to attribute it to the school. The gap between the material tutors cover and what the school covers is big. Classes are 30 for 1 teacher. Disruptive kids are not really managed so you have to be lucky to get a good class. Some teachers are good, some very weak. I wouldn't move for it. Plus you won't get the sports, art, music and everything else private will offer. I can't comment on Belleville

[EmG08]

My daughter is at Honeywell - she is happy enough and it's an ok school but I wouldn't move the house or spend money to be next to it. Older parents say it's not what it used to be. In my experience, it's just ok. Don't get fooled by their KS2 results. It's only because everyone tutors extensively. Pretty much everyone. Without this, the results would not be what they are. So be careful not to attribute it to the school. The gap between the material tutors cover and what the school covers is big. Classes are 30 for 1 teacher. Disruptive kids are not really managed so you have to be lucky to get a good class. Some teachers are good, some very weak. I wouldn't move for it. Plus you won't get the sports, art, music and everything else private will offer. I can't comment on Belleville

[Facts]

Honeywell has a teacher assistant for every class in Infant School and extra for SEN kids. Junior school don't have assistants (apart for SEN kids) but I heard they might be coming back. Classes range from 26-30 kids in infant and 20-24 in junior but it might change with the VAT - which will be good for the school as they get more funding. I'm very involved in the school activities and never seen a teacher not being able to "control" a class, especially during class trips when they're more excited. They actually have a lovely way to get their attention and sometimes it looks like magic. All the teachers are young, full of energy and knowledge, and very open-minded. I much prefer it like this than having older narrow-minded generations taking care of my children. Not everyone is tutored, only the kids who are seeking to go to private schools, which is only 50% of the whole community. My child is performing in greater depth in all the main subjects, at the same level as her "heavily tutored" friends. All my friends who had multiple kids at the school are still very happy with it. Of course they recognise all the changes but they understand that is life - the constant need to evolve and in line with an always changing society.

If you're too worried about education and don't want to feel let down by your choice, just stay where you are and go private. But if you have a more holistic view of life, then move and I'm sure you be happy at either H or B, they both have a amazing staff and a lovely community of kids & parents.

[szerma]

I have 2 children at Belleville where they have been since nursery. We also debated this, but ended up with both in state school and my daughter is now finishing year 6, having gotten offers to the top private schools for secondary (we ended up with our top choice, Emanuel), and so did all her friends who chose the private route for 11+.

We have been very happy with our choice and academically, Belleville is just as good as the very good private schools (and better than some). What you get in private school is the extra curricular activities and certainly more individual focus. We paid for extra activities after school and that equalised it for our kids. Yes, classes are 30 (but in younger years they also have an assistant), but the school does attract a certain kind of pupils (given the catchment) and the parents and the PTA are amazing, therefore there is not much disruptive behaviour, the PTA does loads of fundraising which pays for things like school buses, extra facilities, etc.

For the record, both kids were in a top private nursery school at the same time as doing Belleville nursery (in the afternoon), so I could compare the experience side by side. The reports and comments / feedback we received from both were nearly identical, and being in a larger group actually forced my kids to be more outgoing, make new friends and find their place in a new setting, ultimately being more beneficial for them and preparing them for reception better than a private nursery would.

If money was no object, of course I would send my kids private. However, I am very happy with the choice we made, going state for primary and private secondary, which is what a lot of families do in the area, where they have one of those schools as an option.

I can’t comment on your personal situation, I would think that living near “between the commons” is more desirable than Tooting for more reasons than just Belleville and Honeywell catchment, but the choice is yours!

[Prettyinpink]

Facts - I'm a fellow Honeywell parent and don't recognise these facts. Where do you take average classes sizes of 20-24 from? There are some classes in year 6 that have these numbers because so many kids leave after 10+. Some kids also leave half way through juniors to move private. Or at least they used to. Not sure if this would continue with Vat added. The question remains - why do they leave.

My child has mild Sen and I'm part of the Sen community at school. I can tell you that may times TAs are not even available for Sen kids because the school moves them to other things on some days. Many teachers are totally ignorant of SEN. Also with the widely reported and expected cuts to public spending, it's anticipated that schools will have to make further cuts. No idea where any new TAs would come from then.

Most people tutor. It's not true that only people who plan to go private tutor. There are many people who sit grammar entry exams and tutor as much. Some tutor just so their child doesn't stay behind. Many people will hide the fact and don't want others to know that they tutor. It's very common.

Our teacher frequently makes mistakes when teaching maths. Fact.

I'm generally ok with the school but would never recommend someone to move the house for it

[DontBeSoGrim]

Oh, I definitely hope no one moves the house as this would be quite costly and hard - specially if it's a Victorian!

[szerma]

One more clarification re: Belleville:
Having the same friends every year - there is a “churn” of about 4-5 kids leaving and new ones joining, so there are other options every year if your child wants to make new friends. Also, all classes get mixed in year 6, although they usually keep your child with their best friend.

For anyone who chooses private secondary, many people leave at 10+, so actually not quite so many go private at 11+ as would otherwise. Some people also go private earlier. Like I said, those who stayed until 11+ for private all got into the top choices, and could feel smug comparing with friends who went private for primary and go the same results.

As for extra tutoring, we never did for our daughter until 11+ prep, which is what people with kids in private school do as well. I understand you get more advice in private school as to where your child is likely to get in for secondary, but good tutors can help with that.

Please also remember you could rent something for a year to be in catchment. There are many Belleville kids who commute from Tooting etc, where families moved out after getting a place. However, one of the wonderful aspects of the school is that most people are local, so there are lots of play dates / mum coffees / parents drinks / extra help ad hoc as you need it where parents chip in if you are stuck / a real sense of community.

[Jollyfellow]

Gosh am I glad these days are behind me.

Moving house is quite drastic.

My advice is to go and see the schools and meet headteachers before you make any decisions. The word on the streets is that Honeywell headteacher is ghastly.

I'm also surprised to see Facts post claiming that Honeywell has the average of 20-24 pupils per class. If this is true, the school would have serious funding issues - definitely to be investigated before making any choices because it would impact things like any art, music or sports provisions and they would have to go for cheap newly qualified teachers.

So perhaps Belleville is better funded and a better choice these days. How things change!

[Bratwinter]

Many people move house to be in the Honeywell catchment- as a previous poster has suggested, this is partly about good local primary and secondary schools and also because the local area is a nice place in which to bring up a family. I have a child in Year 5 and children are still transferring in from other local schools as places become available at that stage.

It is true that there is tutoring at Honeywell in the years towards secondary transition, but this is typically only for pupils who are sitting selective examinations, and a good 50% of the year will not be doing this, but still getting well above average results in their SATs. Tutoring is extremely common in independent schools too towards the 11+, and for Belleville students who are sitting entrance exams.

I don't recognize the comment about inexperienced or new teachers at Honeywell. I have never come across a newly qualified teacher working there (not that this would be a bad thing!), and all of the teachers I have come across in my child's six years at the school are still working there, bar one who took a break for a couple of years post-pandemic and is now head of year at a well-know local prep. All classes have had at least one teaching assistant per class, often more.

Honeywell offers good sports, music and art provision. Their sports teams regularly beat local private schools in fixtures, they are building a new dedicated art studio and children can learn a very wide variety of instruments in school via private lessons.

[Supperclub]

We had a newly qualified teacher in year 3. Not a good experience.

Honeywell doesn't have any TAs in juniors, only in infants. The only TAs in juniors are there for SEN kids, not for other kids. They are in most classes because most classes will have at least one child with SEN. Some of them split their time between kids and classes, so spend half day in one class and half in another. They are not TAs for the class

Ps. Why did the teacher you mention not return to Honeywell but moved to a private prep school after his time off?